Speaker 1:
Hi everyone. Susan Stiffelman here. I'm here with Jenny Friedman.

Speaker 2:
Hi Susan.

Speaker 1:
Hello, and welcome to the Parenting Without Power Struggles podcast. I'm your host, Susan Stiffelman. I'm a marriage and family therapist. I was a teacher. I'm the author of Parenting Without Power Struggles and Parenting with Presence. And it's so much fun to do these podcast episodes, especially when I get to work with wonderful people like Jenny. A couple of things just to get you kind of in the groove here. First of all, I know that you may be driving. You may be cleaning, you may be doing multitasking, so that's okay. You don't need to concentrate or focus, but I always invite people to sort of collect yourself just for five seconds and notice what you're doing. If you're washing dishes and listening, just be in a sort of present and orient yourself. And you've tuned into this episode because you want to grow as a parent.

Speaker 1:
You want to learn, so well done. We cover everything here from chores to kids and anxiety, to racial issues and, you know, today mealtimes without power struggles. So this is all a reflection of what I've done over the past 40 something years as a parent educator, a teacher or a family therapist. And I always like to encourage people to make sure that you're getting our newsletters, go to susanstiffelman.com and there's lots of inspiration, lots of support, and all the announcements about the events that we're doing, including something I'm going to be doing with Jenny on meals. So if you'd like to tune into that class on the 29th or catch the replay, visit susanstiffelman.com right now, and you can find out about that. So my guest today is the wonderful kind, generous, interesting, smart Jenny Friedman, who is a registered dietician and nutritionist and a picky eating expert. Jenny is also the author of Stories of Extreme Picky Eating. So welcome.

Speaker 2:
Thank you, Susan. And thank you for that lovely introduction. I'm thrilled to be here with you today.

Speaker 1:
So, you know, boy food can be set a hotbed of conflict. And at the same time, we know that it's one of the most valuable places for families to connect. There's so many studies and we'll talk about this in our upcoming class, but so many studies that point to happy, connected, regular meals as being literally more important than in terms of a predictor of a child's success in life than almost anything else you can think of. Right. Do you want to expand on that? Yeah. So shared meals,

Speaker 2:
Like you said, have they have so many benefits to things, you know, it's beyond the food. So eating together is like you said, one of the most valuable things that we can do, you know, for performance in school for self esteem, for establishing language. And it's huge. So, you know, beyond the factors that we will see play out in so many areas of our life, it's also extremely important for establishing our own relationship with food. And of course, you know, our relationship with our family as well.

Speaker 1:
So you know, jumping in with questions, I always try in these classes and in these podcasts and everything I do to speak on behalf of the people who I imagine are listening and have questions. And I think one of the biggest questions parents would ask is what can they do or what are they perhaps doing that contributes to conflict? And so, conversely, you know, what could they do to lessen the likelihood of conflict at the dinner table or the lunch table or the breakfast,

Speaker 2:
Right? Yeah. And now we're, we're home for all those new probably ever were before. So one of the most important things that we can think about at the table is our roles. So our role as a parent versus our role as an eater and a child, and it's very easy as a parent to think that we should be controlling our children and think that we know what's best for them, but when it comes to eating, we actually want our children to be in control. So as parents, it is our job to set a predictable meal time to serve the meal, to determine where the meal will be and potentially to set the menu depending on the age of your child. So definitely for younger kids, it is our job always to set the menu and probably for many older kids as well. It is the child's job to determine how much they want to eat and if they want to even eat at all.

Speaker 2:
So I see this as being the main source of conflict is so often coming to the table. We start the meal off on a kind of tense foot, on an argument, on a battle of just getting your children to the table and then sitting there where we think that it's our job as parents. So often to dictate how, you know, you're eating that you're eating more. Can you eat more of this? Take one more bite. You can't get up now, are you sure? And all of that just can sort of overpower the meal and make it a lot less pleasant and we're not then getting the benefits that we can enjoy. So I would try to take a step back and remember what we're doing at the meal, what, at what your role is as the parent and what we can expect your children to do with that meal as well.

Speaker 1:
So, gosh, you know, that's the entry point for a major in-depth conversation. We will be sure to cover that more when we do our class, but I always like to look underneath whatever behavior, whether it's in the child or in the parent look for the root. Because I think that when we just prescribe and say, do this, don't do that. Or we say to a child, you shouldn't worry about that. Or why are you, why are you teasing your brother that we miss an opportunity to actually remove the root itself. And if we ask parents to step into a different role than they may have absorbed or believed was their responsibility. Meaning I have to tell them how many bites I have to make them eat a certain quantity. I have to make them stay a certain amount of time. Let's just touch on what might be going on inside the parent to leave, to lead them to believe that is important. That is their responsibility, that it's my job. I would be falling down on the job. I would be failing if I didn't push my child to eat or what food, what insecurity might the parent come into the parenting role with that would influence them to be kind of controlling run the meals?

Speaker 2:
Of course. Well, I think first of all, this is counterintuitive to how a lot of us were raised. This does not model the meals that we had growing up. And this is a relatively new model of eating and raising you and feeding children. But it is what is recommended now. And I think it's very difficult for us to have the trust that our children can trust their bodies can listen to their own bodies and that they'll be okay with eating when we when we, you know, take our hand off of that leash when we let them go. So it is a little bit of a process to have, it's very easy to say, this is your role at the table, but if it is different than something that you have been doing in your family, then it might be an adjustment period. So it is helpful to have this embody, how your general approach to food and feeding. If that we can start to trust our children and let them develop their own personality and relationship with food and with eating

Speaker 1:
Great. So let's look at what that looks like in practical terms, the child comes to the table, maybe reluctantly. And of course we might see over time that some of those old behaviors change as the parent makes some shifts. And that's our hope, but let's say the child shows up at the table, looks at what you've made, what you've labored over. It, you've shopped, you know, for organic food, you've put into this great thing together. You think it's what they would like. And they go,

Speaker 2:
I'm not eating that.

Speaker 1:
Your child's seven, eight years old. What would be your recommendation?

Speaker 2:
Yeah. So this Susan, I feel like we could talk for years about this. So there, you know, there's a couple of different ways and I deal a lot with picky eaters. And so I see parents coming to the table, a lot of that feeling for wanting to control and wanting to have some say in what and how much their child is eating stems from their anxieties about their child's pickiness or maybe from, you know, a past medical history. And then that prevented them from eating comfortably and adequately. And then your child comes to the table and says, I don't want that. And it's helpful as a parent to understand that this is often a child's response to their own feelings of anxiety, potentially about the food that they can be saying. They're not saying I don't want that, but they're saying I'm uncomfortable with this.

Speaker 2:
This is different. It might be also difficult for the child to have this burden on them, to not be in control there. They don't want to come to the table. They were playing and now they don't know what's for dinner. You're telling them what's for dinner and it's very, can feel very threatening to them potentially. So it can be helpful to, to avoid this. You can potentially share the menu and the meal ahead of time. So many of the families I work with their children really benefit from getting a preview or a heads up of just what's happening that day or what is happening that week. And it is helpful to, you know, potentially to avoid this. I don't like that to make sure there is always something that your child will eat at the tables with preferred foods, something that they see at the table, and they know I'm coming to this meal and I will be fed I'm hungry, and my needs will be met. That's crucial.

Speaker 1:
So what about the child who will only eat pasta and butter or Mac and cheese or chicken nuggets?

Speaker 2:
And that's what we are serving them is pasta or Mac and cheese or chicken nuggets. So this really is, can be a bigger discussion, but that those are truly the three foods that your child eats. Then we need to serve one of those three foods at every meal, or more than one, if you choose. And then the, you know, my work is helping you expand beyond those three foods, which is something you can do at the table. But if likely, you know, it's a very big discussion, potentially.

Speaker 1:
Touch on it. Let's touch on the parent who says, well, there's, my child will eat white, white pasta, not even whole grain, white pasta and butter. They will eat the chicken nugget, but only the brand that's the nastiest and most awful for you. And they will eat white bread, you know, white toast. It's something that nutritionally doesn't really have a pack a lot of punch. How can parents perhaps augment that to create the pleasantness at the table by serving it, but also encourage a child to try the new foods that might have more new, more nutritional value.

Speaker 2:
Yeah. So just eating together at the table and having your child's non-preferred foods. So having the rest of the family foods at the table is an amazing place to start. And if you can encourage your child to have those foods on their plate as well, and to potentially they can serve themselves. Some of those non-preferred foods, that's a great first step. So research shows us that just eating as a family is very powerful for the new food in production because children eat what their family eats, eat their siblings, eat, they even eat with it. You know, their friends eat. That's not surprising. So being the role model for your child is a great place to start. And then you know, being open, having nice discussions, nice sort of relaxed discussions about the food is another way as well to have to encourage your child to branch out a little bit.

Speaker 2:
So paying attention to the sauce, which might be actually very sweet that you're having on your pasta and just sort of commenting on that. Just putting it out there is can be very helpful. And this is again, it's where we come in and we feel, Oh my God, I have to make them, how can I make them try this food? How can I expand their diet, it is our job to help them, but we can't make them eat anything. And by encouraging them to take a taste by, you know, doing any sort of requiring, pressuring, even just that positive encouragement can create an unpleasant mealtime and could create a lot of stress for our child. So it's more important to try to have a pleasant meal time together and try to not add an additional source of stress to the food and the eating often a child who is only eating those three types of foods and has an severely limited diet if coming to the table with a lot of anxiety and a lot of barriers that are preventing them from eating. So we really do want to support that, not add

Speaker 1:
That's great. And I know that you work a lot with kids who are, have some sensory issues who might be on the spectrum, who might have issues around the texture, the consistency, the look of the food any slight variation in the spicing of the flavoring. Can you just speak to that briefly?

Speaker 2:
Yes. So sensory aversions are one of the biggest barrier that I see in all of the kids who I work with. So even if there's maybe not a sensory diagnosis, we do tend to see food as such, you know, eating is such a sensory experience. It's usually using every single one of our senses. So it's not surprising that that would be a factor and something that you can do to, you know, be sensitive to this is the first thing for you. It might not be a big deal chicken that gets a chicken nugget, but for your child, you know, that different shape, a different, you know, it's not over cooked a little bit. That could feel really big, especially they're not expecting it. Especially if they do have some sort of you know, sensory impairment that could really feel like a big re a big change for them. So making those sorts of changes slowly would be something that we could do to help progress them. So, you know, going from a plain pasta to a very Safi pasta might be a really big jump, but how can we kind of find baby steps in between there? How can we work up to adding sauce, changing a texture, a look, a brand of flavor.

Speaker 1:
You know, that you have a background in nutrition. And so what do we say by way of comforting parents who want to, or listening to this and who kind of want to relax more, maybe even just try it for a couple of weeks. Cause I always encourage parents to do that. Just, just give it a try for a couple of weeks. If you're doing something new, stay present, notice what it brings up for you. For a lot of us, we bring our own childhood meal stressors and anxieties and, and perhaps, you know, happy memories to what we, you know, what happens at our own dinner table. But if you were to give it a try, what could we say to the parents who saying I'm so worried about my child nutritionally. I feel it's my responsibility to make sure they're getting all the nutrients that they need a balanced diet. My child at bedtime is suddenly very hungry because they didn't eat enough. I more, my child is slim and I want to make sure that they're getting the calories that they need. W what are some words of comfort to parents who feel that they want to their, their kid, their child, at least short-term, wouldn't get the nutrition they need without them intervening.

Speaker 2:
That's a very valid concern and definitely something that we should be sensitive to. So a couple of things, the first is that most children are getting what they need from their food, even if it's a very limited diet. So you can always check with your pediatrician and do some blood work just to make sure that those micro nutrients or vitamins and minerals are where they should be. You can always you know, double check with your doctor, but introduce a multivitamin. That's a great sort of security blanket if you're worried. But remember too, that like, are your intake probably varies day to day? So your child might have a couple of days or a day here and there where they're not eating as much as usual. You're worried it was not enough food at all. That is probably normal. So try not to look at that one day in particular or one meal in particular, look at seven days in your, you know, all of the meals that are happening over the course of a week and see if that balances out.

Speaker 2:
Most likely your child will be eating enough to meet their nutritional needs, to not lose weight and to, you know, get what they need from food. They can regulate pretty well if your child is ending the day and they are, you know, saying that they're hungry. If you're waking up in the middle of the night saying that they're, you know, because they're hungry, then you might want to build in an extra snack or an extra kind of mini meals, some they're somewhere in the day. So whether this is adding an extra meal during the day or just something at night, so maybe your child does not eat well at dinner, I don't normally recommend kind of like a bonus snack or short order cooking an extra special meal. But I do think that it's your job as a parent, that you can recognize this and say, you know what?

Speaker 2:
I think we need to have a little something tonight, and then you can offer a nutritious food that they will accept or a food that they will accept before they go to bed. Of course, you know, while offering their preferred food, still try to pay attention to nutrition. So you want to ideally have protein and fat and vegetable fiber. These are foods to keep our kids full and get them all the nutrients. So wherever you can, protein might be the thing that I think can be really difficult for picky eaters, protein and veggies, but protein is going to keep them full. So wherever you can sneak that in a little piece of cheese, maybe a smear, peanut butter on their bread and extra chicken nugget, whatever it is, the classic milk that is an important thing that you can work into the meal. So don't be afraid to offer, you know, two preferred foods at a meal if that's what they need to keep them full.

Speaker 1:
Awesome. It's so reassuring. Because what we want to do is kind of reestablish the family dinner table, or, you know, dinner, lunch, whatever the meal is, but we'll call it dinner, the dinner table as a place of, of lightness and connection and where everybody wants to hang out. And I think in many respects, we've lost that. I had a conversation recently with someone whose child would only stay at the table if they propped up, if they played a video, right? Like that was the, the mechanism by which they could keep this child there. I said, the child doesn't have to stay. Do you want to speak to that? That the child, who's just not interested in staying for a long time, you know, a young, a young one.

Speaker 2:
Yeah, I do think, you know, this is another pretty juicy topic, but there's a number of factors that can play into this. So, first of all, I think that we can often have expectations are unrealistic expectations for our children. If they're young, they really, it's hard for them to sit at the table for a long time. So it's a little bit adjusting where we are, and they're also, your child might, might really be struggling to sit at the table. Maybe it's hard for them to sit still. Maybe it is sort of an uncomfortable experience for some reason, if they do have those sensory aversions, maybe it's difficult to watch or hear or smell the smells that are there and to experience the noises of everybody else eating. So we, we can think about how to make this easier for them. How do I adjust our expectations and how to make the meal more comfortable and more enjoyable?

Speaker 2:
So, you know, if the tablet is an issue at the table and you want to get rid of that and you're able to get rid of that, can we have baby steps and kind of ween the tablet out, or what can we replace it with? What would be a fine alternative to that? And if your child, you know, really feel like they need to be sitting at the table longer, I just got a message from a former client who says her sign is really only sitting for like three minutes right now. And it's just not enough. And he's hungry because he didn't eat in those three minutes and what can she do? And so maybe we just need to work up to keeping him at the table and we can go three minutes and take a break. And then we come back with the three minutes, what tools can you implement? And I'm all about baby steps and like realistic steps to help you get there. So what small steps can you take that will help you reach a bigger goal?

Speaker 1:
And I know in our class, I want to talk a lot about involving kids in the preparation of the meal, the serving of the food and all that. So we have some great ideas and a lot of games that you can use. So now I don't know if you disagree with me, but if I've got a three-year-old, who's coming to the table, grabbing a few bites and then running around and coming back, or has a toy at the table, where do you stand on that?

Speaker 2:
I was that three-year-old, I couldn't sit at the table. I was the one who would sit down and then I would run around for a little bit and I'd come back and I always loved to eat. I still do. But that, that was me. Is that okay? You know, it really depends. I can't say that's okay or not. Does that work for your family? What's the potential, you know, issue with that? What are the potential benefits of that? If your child needs a distraction, a toy, a tablet at the table, maybe they do need that. Maybe that is supporting them in some way, or maybe it's distracting them in detracting from your enjoyment as a family. So it's really very unique to each situation. Ideally yes, you are sitting around and everybody's having a great time. You sit at the table, there's no need for a distraction, but that might not be where you are right now. And there may be a very good reason why that is not the case at the moment.

Speaker 1:
And I'm just going to go on record y'all, but I don't want the tablet at the table. I don't want electric electronic devices, but if it's a toy, if it's a little book or if the child gets up and down, that's just my take on it.

Speaker 2:
Ideally I would not recommend introducing one, if you do not, I do not recommend introducing a tablet or a toy on the table. I always recommend distraction-free, but I understand why there might why your child might be using a tablet to eat it. If they're able to eat without it, then please just get rid of it. If they do need that to get their calories, to sit comfortably, then maybe there's a very good reason why it's there. And that might be a situation where you can then work on adjusting on, work, on getting them comfortable, addressing their need, and then removing the tablet.

Speaker 1:
Awesome. Okay. So this is sort of, as you said, a very juicy topic, it's such a great one. And, and the truth is I haven't really done a lot on food. I I've covered so many topics. If you go to Susanstiffelman.com and you go to products and you want more, you know, classes and input and ideas, you will see so many top topics, but this is one that I have been short on. So I'm very excited that we're going to do this class on the 29th. And as always, if you can't come to the class, you get the replay, we've got a, an early bird coupon going on right now. And is there anything you want to add to any, just any kind of takeaway that a parent might consider a ponder or try the in the week ahead?

Speaker 2:
So I think the one thing that I will leave as a little tidbit is that, you know, especially if we're thinking dinner at the end of the day, and we are exhausted, we put in a lot of work to making our meal into, you know, raising your humans all day long and living your life, and then come to the end of the day, exhausted. And it can be unbelievably frustrating and disappointing when the meal does not go, as you expect, whether it's not pleasant, whether your child's not eating enough, and you're worried whether they rejected your food. And so I always recommend, instead of focusing on all of the things that didn't happen and all of the things that went wrong, all the things they didn't eat, try to end that meal on a positive, what was something that did happen well, what did you enjoy? Try to find one thing to your child fit for one wonderful minute, you know, did they not say the food looked yucky? What was one thing that happened? And this has been something that's really helped the families I work with enjoy time at the table a little bit more, a lot more often, and can make a big difference and help you get a good launching off point.

Speaker 1:
Ah, that's great advice. Thank you so much. Can you just tell people a little bit more about your work and how to find out what you're up to?

Speaker 2:
Of course. So, yeah, I like Susan said, I'm a registered dietician and I specialize in extreme picky eating. So this tends to be more than just a phase children who really do have such a limited diet, like the one that we were discussing that might only have three foods that are all the same color and are very, maybe bland. So I work with families one-on-one and in a group setting, which is really amazing and so supportive. And you can find more about that on jennyfriedmannutrition.com, and I'm also on Instagram at @feedingpickyeaters.

Speaker 1:
Great. Awesome. Okay. Thank you so much, Jenny. I'm really looking forward to going further exploring this more for those of you listening. Thank you for tuning in. It just makes my heart happy that you're listening or you're watching. And you're considering how you can bring more connection and love and ease into your family's life. If you're enjoying the podcast, please leave a rating or even a review takes a minute, but it's so, so helpful. A lot of you have been telling your friends, this podcast are passing it on, and we really appreciate that. I think we're at least a half a million downloads now. I'm not sure I haven't checked lately, but I know it's been, it's been well received and I think it's because of wonderful guests like you, Jenny. So thank you again.

Speaker 2:
Thank you so much. It was great to be here and I'm looking forward to our talk in the 29th. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
For everyone, stay in touch, go to susanstiffelman.com, sign up for the newsletter. And there's some really good stuff coming your way. So that's it for today as always, I like to close by saying no matter how busy life gets look for those moments of sweetness and joy take good care and we'll see you next time.