Episode summary:

In this conversation, Susan speaks with Dr. Kira Banks about issues at the forefront of our news since the death of George Floyd. Dr. Banks shares practical steps parents can make to address issues of discrimination and disparity with even very young children so that we can shift to a more equitable world for all.

Things you’ll learn from this episode:

• How to cultivate equity in our children
• Ways we can learn about racial inequity alongside our kids
• The importance of widening the lens on racism and discriminatory practices

Get every podcast episode delivered automatically!

Transcript:

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much for being here, Dr. Banks. Thanks for having me. Let me just tell our listeners a little bit about you and your wonderful work. Dr. Kira Banks is a tenured associate professor in the department of psychology at St. Louis University. Her research examines the experience of discrimination, its impact on mental health and intergroup relations. Her courses have ranged from abnormal psychology to the psychology of racism. Dr. Banks has contributed to the Harvard business review, popular outlets like Huffington Post and The Atlantic, and has also developed a YouTube series on the channel Raising Equity, which explores what it looks like to intentionally raise children with an equity mindset, with knowledge and understanding of systemic inequalities and equipping them to create an equitable society rather than accept the status quo. Boy, thank you so much for being here.

Speaker 2:

I appreciate you being willing to engage in the conversation.

Speaker 1:

So yeah, I feel completely unfit to offer anything, but I also feel a great need to not look away. My belief at the core is that the work that we do as parents is really in a sense, the most important work in establishing a future that is led by young people who we are raising now, people who grow up with compassion and tolerance and understanding and acceptance. So how do we make that shift in our parenting today? How do we cultivate tolerance and the celebration of diversity when we seem to carry so much cellular baggage.

Speaker 2:

You know, one of the big things that I encourage folks to consider is that we need to understand that with systems of oppression. And so specifically racism, you know, we, can’t nice our way out of it. We can’t tolerate our way out of it. We can’t diversify our way out of it. We have to understand that it really is systemic. It’s a system. And so while of course it means that we need to be thinking about how we individually treat each other. That that’s not enough that we also have to be scrutinizing our laws, our policies, our practices, our norms, the way that we do what we do, who were the last people that we had over for dinner at our house, what sort of art exhibits are we going to? Which sort of fairs and festivals do we deem as worthy, which book characters are centered in our libraries.

Speaker 2:

Those are the sorts of things that set the stage for us to understand different. But if we don’t think about how to change our practices, our patterns of behaviors, the system of racism won’t change. And so I think that’s one thing that’s essential is that people understand that racism is not just about individual behavior, that it really is a system and a pattern of behaviors, actions, policies, norms, laws, that we have to be willing to interrupt. Yeah. Well you’re up in the helicopter and because of the work that you do, you’re seeing the larger picture helped me break that down into actionable steps that parents can implement in their day to day lives. Yeah. So in raising equity, we talk about raising equity nerds. And I say, I use that analogy because we love to put our kids in Kumon or select baseball or whatever it is, and we want them to be really good at it.

Speaker 2:

Right? And I also think that we need to be using rigor around their understanding of social issues. And so that means we in name it, we name what an equity that we’re seeing that is occurring and that’s happening around us. And then we eat, educate ourselves. And you know what, sometimes that means as adults, we have to go fill in some gaps, some information, some, a history, some knowledge that we weren’t taught and we can move alongside that journey with our kids. We don’t have to have it all figured out. We can learn with them and then you are reframe it. So let’s take an example. We can see what’s happening right now in the media with George Floyd, we can talk about police brutality and that it disproportionately impacts black and Brown folks. We can name that, right? And then we can educate ourselves about the history of police brutality.

Speaker 2:

The ways in which our law enforcement has very much been a source of racialized violence. We look at lynching and the Jim Crow era, the police were often, we’re often a tool of that. The KKK and the police were sometimes in some cities and towns, one in the same, we have to understand that history. And then we can further understand things like how we’ve set up our laws. We now understand very clearly with like the crack cocaine disparities that we had in the nineties and how that contributed to the disproportionate, disproportionate sentencing that happened. So those are just two examples of how we might educate ourselves about the history of how policing and law enforcement interact with the black and Brown community. And then we can our reframe it. And so the reframing means, of course, we see George Floyd who had the knee in his neck and the officer Shovan who had his knee in his neck and that is egregious, but we reframe it as not just one individual act and one individual incident.

Speaker 2:

And we see the pattern. We understand the long list of individuals who’ve been impacted by police violence. We understand the system of policing, the fact that what was, what was going on in the police department that, yes, it was one person’s knee, but there were other officers that stood by that there’s a whole department that has violent acts against the community. And, they’re not the only city that has that violent acts. So you start to see the pattern, right? So then you start to see the system. And so you reframe it from not just being an individual thing. Well, why didn’t George Floyd, X, Y, and Z. Well, no one deserves to be killed for potentially writing a bad check, right? You start to see the pattern of how black and Brown bodies are policed in ways that are unfair and unjust. You start to see the pattern of police brutality.

Speaker 2:

So that’s our reframing it from being an individual issue to being a systems issue. And then you D you start to dream up solutions. Like, what would it look like for this to not be the case? What would it look like to have a community where everyone would want to call the police? Because they would feel protected? What would it look like to have a community like that? So you dream up solutions of how that might happen, what that might look like. And what’s great about this. When you do this with kids, is that they are not seeped in all of the, all of the buckets that we have as adults. So an example of this is around education. When you have kids break down the education system and look at how they’re disproportionately funded, and the fact that if we understand how our education system works kids I’ve explained to the kids. They said, well, why don’t we just pull all the funding? Why do we have it based on property taxes, we should just pull all the funding and share it. So as an adult, we would come up with all the reasons why that wouldn’t work, but kids are like, well, that’s the solution.

Speaker 2:

So dream up the solutions about what, what it would look like to be equitable, so that race would not predict outcomes. And then the last one is S it’s starting to act, it’s asking what is the next smallest step that I can take towards that solution that we dreamed up. And so that’s where kids can be involved in writing a petition or signing a petition speaking up at their council meeting. It could be, it could be any host of activities. There. There’ve been young people at the university of Minnesota who said, we need to, as, as students here, we need to push the president to divest from the police department that, that we’re saying as a university, we don’t want the police who are doing harmful acts to be at our events, right? The simple way to say this is not okay. And because you’re engaged in this behavior that we believe is agregious, we don’t want our university, the tuition we pay, the activity funds that we pay to go to support. So it’s a divestment, right. And that was young people that came up with that and have been pushing for it. You know, they’re not the first to come up with the idea of divestment, but they were, they were the first to push for it in this case. And that we’re seeing that, that move all across the country. Yeah. So that’s an example of how you would equity nerds.

Speaker 1:

Beautiful. I love that acronym. Thanks for that. I was at a, I was at a protest demonstration gathering over the weekend, and I’m sure lots of people who were at respective events in their community saw the same thing. We see these parents with their kids, and honestly, it just moves me to tears. Now, of course, then we want to take that home. It’s one thing to show up, and it’s a very powerful thing for many kids to be part of finding magnification when voices come together. But then it’s the day in and day out. How do we live? As you said, what books are you reading? What shows are you watching? And one of the things about my work that that I really emphasize is getting underneath issues, looking at the root of an issue. So rather than coming up, for instance, with bandaid solutions or phrases to say to a child who won’t take out the trash, I’m asking the question, why does this behavior makes sense?

Speaker 1:

And I talk about coming alongside rather than coming at someone, because when we come at anyone that reflects of resistance and defiance, you know, who are you to tell me what to do arises in us, but when we come alongside them, we’re attempting to understand, help me understand ways that we can look inside ourselves at some of the things that prevent us from choosing wine clubs or books or shows that might fall outside of our, our comfortable range or the one that we’re most familiar with. So we can start to bring more of this into our day to day lives with our kids.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I really liked that, that framing, the importance of, of coming alongside rather than coming at. And I think that’s, what’s required. There’s no place that we can point to that has racism fixed. And so if there’s no place that we can point to as a model, we’ve got to figure it out, which means we’re all coming alongside each other learning. And I think having that spirit, that sense of compassion with yourself. Cause I think sometimes what keeps parents from having a conversation is because they’re scared to get it wrong. They don’t know how to start. It feels paralyzing. And I, I hope that people will have compassion for themselves. And if you had a friend who was struggling with something to talking about, they’re talking to their kids about something they might, you might say, Oh, I understand. And you give them a pep talk, help them do it. Right. But how we sometimes berate ourselves and we don’t have the right answer when it comes to these issues. I think because we feel like it’s so important, which is good, but we’ve got to just fumble along and learn alongside with our kids.

Speaker 1:

That’s very true on my author page, posted something, I posted a couple of things and I, I led with the statement. I am not in a position of any kind of expertise or authority. I just want to use this platform to bring, to light some of the things I think we all could be learning together. But at the same time, of course, there’s a sense of, is this even useful? Am I doing anything? How can we kind of be okay with taking baby steps? So are big steps. You know, I, I appreciate the posture of saying, you know, I’m not equipped to, to say anything or have, or are, I don’t know what I can have to offer, but I, I have to push back a bit to just say, I think that as a white woman, there’s a lot that you have to offer a lot that you have to say from your perspective, from your positionality. And so I think about it, like with, when we think about gender and we think about issues of consent, right? We don’t only want women who are disproportionately impacted by rape to know about consent and the importance of consent. They’re not the only ones we want to be experts on the topic. We want men as well to understand, to be engaged in the questions and the problem solving.

Speaker 2:

And so I give that example to say, like, it’s a, both, and we’re in this together. And so just like when it comes to issues of sexual violence, we wouldn’t want, we wouldn’t just say, well, the victim, you get the floor. It’s like, well, yes, absolutely. And what solutions are we going to come up with together? And if you’re in a position of power, where can you, where can you change things? How can you leverage your privilege? Right. So I, I think sometimes in these moments of like huge uprisings absolutely. We should be centering the voices of folks who are most impacted. Absolutely. But that doesn’t mean that folks who have power and privilege because of their identities should be silent. Yeah. Right. That’s why you’re on this podcast. Exactly.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Last question and such a complex question. There’s no simple answer, but how can we talk with our children about what’s going on in terms of not only the peaceful protest and gatherings that are so vital to democracy, but the splintering groups that are creating the impression of chaos and, and disruption.

Speaker 2:

I think we’ve got to remember that movement is wide and it’s a long to long, long game. And so one, everyone has a different lane. And so find your lane. And I think that for parents who want to start these conversations with their kids, like it would be great if you had laid a foundation for them to understand race and racism. And so that what’s happening now is simply another unfortunate example of what you’ve taught them. But if not, that’s okay. Simply start naming being curious with them, asking what they think, seeking information together. So that idea that you gave around about learning alongside with them. I think that that’s where we start. If we haven’t already set some groundwork, because I also just want to share with your listeners, it’s important to have this conversation, not just because as a black mother with black children, I’d love for people to be having these conversations so that my black boys will be safe in the world.

Speaker 2:

But we know from research that kids see and notice race from a very young age, as early as a year, they notice skin tone differences. But at that age, they don’t have all the baggage and the negative, the negative connotations that we’ve created around race, but, you know, that starts around preschool. And so if they, as young, as preschool are starting to buy into our narratives about who’s good, who’s bad, who’s smart, who’s ugly. You know, there’s consistent research that finds that, that we have to step in and help them make meaning of what they’re seeing around them. Because if they’re picking it up as young as preschool, and we let them make their own meaning, you know, we’re letting the smog of racism, teach them and be louder in their learning than what we say we value in terms of celebrating differences and equity.

Speaker 2:

And so I think the question is how, but also realizing that it’s imperative, that we must, even if it’s hard, that we can do hard things, we tell our kids that and all sorts of ways, but as adults and parents, we can do this. We can do hard things so that we can raise equity less. Oh my gosh. Thank you. Such a powerful and important message. And for everyone listening, just take it in. If you’d like to find out more, where can people find out more about your work, Dr. Banks? And are there any other resources that you would point people toward? Yeah. So I would say I’m on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, Twitter, Dr. Kira Banks or Kara Banks and raising equity also is on Instagram and Facebook and Twitter. And I think that the resources that I would point towards point folks towards, in addition to my work, Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria? is an oldie, but goodie, they just had a 20th anniversary edition book coming out.

Speaker 2:

We stories is an organization that’s based out of st. Louis, but it just announced its national first national cohort that engages families of little kids. So young kids, I think six and younger and we stories. So w E but the play on, you know, we small, they have its first first national cohort that’s starting and it’s to engage young people around these conversations through books. And then I’d also say, I’m, I mentioned, Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria?, I’m actually doing a live conversation with the author Wednesday, June 3rd on my Facebook live. So you can go to my Facebook page at 7:00 PM Eastern time. I’ll be talking to Beverly Tatum, the author of wild black it’s in together in the cafeteria. And if you can’t make it, then it’ll be on my webpage. You can watch it any time.

Speaker 1:

Great. Great. Thank you. Oh my gosh. You know, the one thing that I keep coming back to, which is why I started doing the Monday Better Togethers when the virus hit was just that we have to hold hands. Honestly, we just have to hold each other’s hands and hold each other up. Even when, as you said, it’s hard. We don’t know how to do it. It seems overwhelming. We have to kind of take one foot, one step in front of the other. And I’m so glad for those of you listening that you’re here, that you’re in the conversation. We will continue this conversation. So thank you again, Dr. Kira Banks.